HearYeTheRod

We’ll pick up where we left off and look at point #3.

BT — This remaining period shall be an extended time in their adopted land, and not heading homeward (Kingdom land) for a good while because of spending time obtaining SDA assets and institutions.

This extended time in the adopted land is largely based on the references based on taking over the assets and institutions of the SDA church, and the extended time it would take.


The refs —

Question: “A number of times the S.D.A. ministers have quoted the Rod as saying that after the slaughter, the ‘Rods’ think they will have possession of the denomination-including the churches, institutions, etc. I have seen nothing definite regarding this and have always been of the opinion that the 144,000 would simply inherit the truths and the message. It seems improbable that the law would allow those left to have any of the material things since most of them will have been disfellowshipped, and would we want them? Do you have anything definite on this?”

   Answer: These institutions legally belong to the members of the S.D.A. denomination and therefore, when those who do not receive the seal of God in their foreheads fall under the slaughter weapons of the angels, naturally the ones who are left will be the legal owners of all the denominational assets, and as only those who have the seal will be left, there will be no controversy about the legal ownership of the institutions. Though many will be disfellowshipped this would have no bearing as long as we stay with the denomination whether they recognize us as members or not. This condition will prove that the membership is split in factions, and as one faction passes away the other that remains would naturally constitute the denomination and control all its institutions. Moreover, the ministerial faction has neither legal right nor religious ground upon which to disfellowship any of us, for we have done nothing to give them the right to cast us out. If we even now went to law we could win back our membership, for we stand true to the fundamental principles upon which the institutions were erected and the denomination founded, but as they have departed from them and are refusing to get back, on one hand by their conduct they will prove to the legal authorities that they are unlawfully taking possession of the denomination, while on the other hand we by our good behavior will prove to be the legal owners of it. Hence, denying us membership without any legal or religious ground does not make them right and us wrong.” (1 SC, no.16, p.3-4)

“..Mt. Carmel Center is not worried about taking the institutions, but rather is concerned to effect this long-waited-for reformation. Nevertheless, as it is true that if those connected with these institutions continue to remain as they now are, the Lord has promised that He will “spue” them “out,” then, of course, the institutions which God may see fit to spare will be left to those who “sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof,” of whom Mt. Carmel’s members are being made up.”(3 SC, no.11-12, p.2)


“..if we voluntarily stay away from the church services, we lay ourselves open to the charge of being offshoots from the body, and at the same time forfeit the opportunity of coming in contact with the congregation. Moreover, if in this wise we separate ourselves, then in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, when those who have not the “mark” are taken away, we shall not have the same right to claim an inheritance in the Denomination.” ( 4 Ans. p.32)

In 1 SC, no.16 quote we see it’s points clearly. Once Ezek.9 occurs there shall be no doubt as to remaining ownership of assets of the church. Money, vehicles, Bibles, and all other useful assets will be obtainable by the saints. However, as will be shown, this cannot involve long time consuming legal battles. No doubt angels of our Lord shall assist in this rapid process.

We really appreciate how inspiration carefully words the message. Let’s remember counsel and mark carefully what it says in 3 SC, no.11-12 quote. Notice —

“..the institutions which God may see fit to spare will be left to those who “sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof,” of whom Mt. Carmel’s members are being made up.” MAY SEE FIT TO SPARE?

What does the Holy Word and message say concerning the church after the Ezekiel 9 church judgment, let us read —

 “And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name”(Isa. 65:15)

The denominational name will they leave to God’s servants; that is, to those who escape from the Lord’s sword shall the name consequently be left.  The name, however, is left only as a curse, and His servants will be called by another name which “the mouth of the Lord shall name.”(1 TG, no.44, p.7-8)

  “Looking forward to this day of purification, Zechariah prophesies: “In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts:…and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.” Zech. 14:20, 21.

   Envisioning the same scene, the prophet Isaiah declares: “And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken;…thou shalt be called Hephzibah…The holy people.” Isa. 62:2-4, 12.(Tract 3, p.74)

“Speaking of the church, he declares: “And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto My chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call His servants by another name.” Isa. 65:15.

Plainly, therefore, in the time when Assyria crumbles, the Lord is to perform a dual work among His professed people, some of whom will be made free because of their faithfulness, and some of whom will be slain because of their wickedness.  The delivered ones will then be  called by another name.”( Tract 14, p.18)

After reading these clear references, we know beyond doubt that the remaining SDA church’s name and therefore anything connected to it — shall be a curse. Remember, one of our inspired counsels is to be logical thinker and close reasoner. We can see that there cannot be any reason for a long legal battle to take over institutions that are cursed! The saints will run from any connection to all things Seventh-day Adventist, not try to obtain them. Education, Administrative, Health and all other SDA entities will no longer have God’s blessings but instead a curse! So God will see fit to spare nothing obviously. His word harmonizes both the “taking over” aspects with what will be obtainable in this understanding. Again, a reminder HARMONIZATION is a must —

“No candid Bible student would build a theory upon an interpretation that would lead him to set aside all other scriptures on the subject. He will seek to make his final analysis in such a way as to be in perfect harmony with all of them, or else confess that he does not have the light on the subject.” (3 Ans, p.53)


Any tangible and useful assets from the church can and most likely be obtained in a rapid manner as rapid preparations are made for the saints travel Kingdom bound. No doubt Angels will be helping in this regard. Specifically the saints will logically obtain the assets that will be useful as mentioned above.

Now why do we say “rapid preparations”? Let us read —

 “Zech. 14:3, 4 — “Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.  And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

   At the time Jerusalem, that now is, falls, the Lord’s feet shall stand upon Mount of Olives and there make a very great valley; that is, remove the obstacles and hindrances, and thus prepare the land for the returning of His people.  Then it is that the prophecy of Zechariah 10:8 — that the Lord shall “hiss” for His people will have met its fulfillment.

Zech. 14:5 — “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

   Having thus opened the way for the re-establishment of the house of Judah, His people, who beforehand have been informed of it through present Truth, will flee to the valley, to where the Lord’s feet stand, as quickly as if they were fleeing from an earthquake; and all the saints thereafter follow after them.  There are several facts in this scripture itself which prove that this event is premillenial: (1) Note that the Lord’s feet stand on the mount in the day of the war in which Jerusalem is taken by the wicked nations.  (2) Those that flee to the valley do not descend from Heaven.  (3) They can not be the wicked for they do not flee away from the Lord, but flee to Him, to where His feet stand.  (4) All the saints follow after them. “Early Writings,” p. 75, makes a double application of this scripture, a post millennial one.( 1 TG, no.19, p.4-5)

“Just before the kingdom of Judah is established in Jerusalem, the city shall be besieged, the houses shall be rifled and women ravished.  Not all, though, shall go into captivity.  The residue are not cut off from the city, they obviously become a part of the house of Judah.  At that time, when Jerusalem has fallen and the Lord has removed all obstacles and hindrances for the gathering of His people, then it is that the house of Judah is re-established.  God’s people shall flee to the “valley” as quickly as though they were fleeing from an earthquake.  The Lord smites the armies of the nations, while at the same time He protects and exalts His own people.” (1 TG, no. 19, p.8)

Zech 14:4, 5 — “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

   “In that day.”  In what day? — In the day all nations gather against Jerusalem that now is, and bring its fall from Gentile rule.  In that day the Lord’s feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives.  The Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, there shall be a very great valley; “and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.” Zech. 14:4.  The Lord’s post-millennial coming, too, shall be similar to this.  See Early Writings, pp. 51, 52.

   The servants of God shall then flee to the valley of the mountains, where the Lord’s feet shall stand, and all the saints with them; that is, the Lord’s “feet” will open the way for the restoration of the Kingdom, and for the gathering of the people into it.” ( 2 TG, no. 31, p.6-7)

“Obviously one part of the Gentile nations shall come against the part that is in the Holy Land, and chase them out to make room for God’s people.  Then will the Lord’s feet stand on Mount Olives and the Mount shall cleave in the midst thereof and make therein a very great valley.  Thus shall the Lord open the way for His people to flee there to the “valley” where the Lord’s feet stand, and all the saints with them (Zech. 14:4, 5).”( 2 TG, no. 44, p.50-51)



Four repeated references saying 1) when the Lord’s feet stand upon Mt. Olives the saints shall “flee” there to where the Lord is, in the Holy Land. 2) The Lord’s feet can only be standing there at the time of the Zech. 14 war. Not any other time later. Unfortunately these straight clear words of the Lord, is not addressed “as it reads” in BT’s endtime event timeline. If we start to ignore, cancel, sweep under the rug, clear plain verses of the message, where do we stop? The pieces of the puzzle MUST fit and God made a clear endtime scenario for us, IF we will read it and believe it.

But this is not all, we also have the type Jacob. When the Lord told Jacob to go home (Gen 31:3) he called for Rachel and Leah, and make rapid preparations to begin home. He did not stay long in his adopted land. When the Lord completes His clearing of the land for the 144,000 we read —

“At the time Jerusalem, that now is, falls, the Lord’s feet shall stand upon Mount of Olives and there make a very great valley; that is, remove the obstacles and hindrances, and thus prepare the land for the returning of His people. Then it is that the prophecy of Zechariah 10:8 — that the Lord shall “hiss” for His people — will have met its fulfillment.” (1 TG, no.19, p.4)

The Lord will call for His people to return! Will God’s people ignore this calling? Of course not! BT’s view say they will, continuing to stay in their adopted land for quite a while. This does not meet type.

Lastly, the Harvest Chart shows the woman sitting upon the seven heads (Church federation)and one of those heads is NOT the SDA church. The SDA church ceases to exist, is cursed, and the saints cannot spend a long drawn out legal battle to take over these institutions God has cursed.

Thus we see that once Ezek.9 happens, the war is over, the saints know their calling, and just as our type did, they will not delay in making preparation to begin their homeward travel.

On point #3 we see once again RP’s views holdup under close scrutiny and harmonizing the references.

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

Note: This will be a multi-part report as we have alot to go through.

For some reason, the issue of what will be Jacob’s time of trouble lingers among our Ministry, as our people really would like unity on this subject. As some know, yours truly and brother Terry Harrison, have differing views on this. His being that JTT is caused by the Sunday Law, and mine being we are not told exactly what JTT will be in the Lord’s Elijah message (Shepherd’s Rod). The view I come to, is that although we do not know exactly what will be JTT, we do know from the message that after Ezek.9 the saints will proceed to make ready their travel and head home, and on their way (physically travelling) they shall experience JTT.

As we have done in the past, when another view is presented, one of the best ways to see if that view is sustainable and logical (truth indeed), is to put all the pieces of that view together and then break it down one by one with references to see if it a) goes by weight of evidence b) is harmonious with the references c) makes logical sense. We shall now do that with our views.

Our guidelines shall be the references and the Harvest Chart and inspired counsel — Be a Logical thinker and Close reasoner.

Let’s briefly compact BT’s (brother Terry’s) view:

#1) Ezek. 9 comes during the Zech. 14 war ( Tract 14, p.22)
#2) After this war and Ezek.9, the 144,000 remain in their adopted lands
#3) This remaining period shall be an extended time in their adopted land, and not heading homeward (Kingdom land) for a good while because of spending time obtaining SDA assets and institutions
#4) Once the Sunday Law goes worldwide (Woman rides the Scarlet colored Beast) then the 144,000 begin to head home
#5) Upon their physical travel home they will experience JTT which is the Sunday Law persecution againt them
#6) After JTT they arrive in the Kingdom
#7) Upon arrival they see that the four carpenters have built up the Kingdom
#8) Once they are there they stand on Mt. Zion with the Lamb
#9) They then go out to do the Loud Cry

RP’s view:

#1) Ezek. 9 comes during the Zech. 14 war (Tract 14, p.22)
#2) After this war and Ezek.9, the 144,000 make ready and preparations to head home
#3) Once the issues are cleared (Travel arrangements, collecting any assets from the SDA church made available) they begin their physical travel home
#4) On their way they experience JTT
#5) After JTT they arrive in the Kingdom
#6) They stand with the Lamb on Mt. Zion
#7) They meet two groups of people — Those whom the Lord has spared from the war, and the four carpenters (builders)
#8) The building commences, with the Lord directing, the four carpenters and 144,000 go forward in building up the Kingdom
#9) Once the Kingdom is set and anti-typical Joshua authorizes the 144,000, they go out to do the Loud Cry

#1. Both views agree to this starting point

#2. We’ll now look at references BT uses to support this idea. The general thinking and this is not uncommon in Davidia, is that the saints will spend time in the “wilderness” and that they will spend time “taking over” the assets and institutions of the SDA church. Thus, they will have to be in their adopted land for an extended period of time.

“Thus says the LORD: “The people who survived the sword Found grace in the wilderness— Israel, when I went to give him rest.” (Jer. 31:2)

“The people who survive their captivity, are to find grace in the lands of the Gentiles — in “the wilderness,” away from the vineyard. (Since the Promised Land is the vineyard — Isaiah 5 — then what would the wilderness be but the lands of the Gentiles?) God’s people will find this grace at the time the Lord causes them to rest from their “sojourning” — after the “Judgment in the house of God” (1 Pet. 4:17) takes place.”(1 TG, no.48, p.20)

The above reference is the only Rod reference that explains what Jer.31:2 means for us. Both of the views agree to this rest to come after Ezek.9 except for the timing.

But now let’s take a look at our type Jacob. In 1 TG, no.47, we find one of the most detailed reports on JTT in the message, and certainly the most applicable. The early pre-Kingdom references in the Rod volumes certainly have to be taken as “borrowing” from the light shining at that time (See 1 Ans. p.49) which was mostly SOP.

Every DSDA should know that SOP had limited light on the full developments of the 144,000 and JTT.

Ok, back to 1 TG, no.47. In that sermon address, we notice inspiration makes a statement of type and antitype.

“That which happened to Jacob is sure to happen to us, and how comforting to know all this ahead of time. Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that where there is no type, there is no Truth.”(1 TG, no.47, p.15)

So what happened to Jacob in his finding grace and rest in the wilderness?

1. Jacob did not find this in his adopted land but outside of it on his travelling journey.

2. Jacob met the angels of God on his travel homeward.

“Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. When Jacob saw them, he said, “This is God’s camp.” And he called the name of that place Mahanaim.”(Gen. 32:1-2)

We all know a “camp” is signifying a place of rest, is it not? To see God’s angels and to rest at camp certainly would indicate finding grace and rest. But the key point is that this did not occur in his place of abode , his adopted land.

Now if we go with BT’s view we have to conclude our adopted lands where we live is where we’ll experince the grace and rest. This does not meet type in any respect. Thus our type in this regard shows truth — finding grace and rest on the travel outside his adopted land , not in it.

On this #2 point, RP’s postition is upheld based on type.

This concludes part 1 and we’ll pick up later and go over additional points.

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

Many Davidians learn one of the first most basic truths of the message when they come into the present truth message of Elijah. That is Testimonies to Ministers, page 445. Let us read.

“John sees the elements of nature–earthquake, tempest, and political strife– represented as being held by four angels. These winds are under control until God gives the word to let them go. There is the safety of God’s church. The angels of God do His bidding, holding back the winds of the earth, that the winds should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree, until the servants of God should be sealed in their foreheads. The mighty angel is seen ascending from the east (or sunrising). This mightiest of angels has in his hand the seal of the living God, or of Him who alone can give life, who can inscribe upon the foreheads the mark or inscription, to whom shall be granted immortality, eternal life. It is the voice of this highest angel that had authority to command the four angels to keep in check the four winds until this work was performed, and until he should give the summons to let them loose….This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision. John also had been a witness of this most startling revelation.”(TM, p.444-445)


Here we see that both the sealing of the saints (144,000) and the church judgment of Ezekiel 9 are the SAME EVENT. Meaning that if we take this literal word and stand upon it as truth we know that there will not be a separation of time from the completion of the sealing upon the 144,000 and Ezekiel 9. Further, the Rod confirms the above statement over 30 times in message!

For example just one of them —

“The angel of Revelation 7, who prophetically sealed the 144,000, is the same as the one of Ezekiel Nine, who marked those who signed and cried for the abominations in the church. Says the Spirit of Prophecy: “This mightiest of angels (Rev. 7:2) has in his hand the seal of the living God, or of Him who alone can give life, who can inscribe upon the foreheads the mark or inscription, to whom shall be granted immortality, eternal life. It is the voice of this highest angel that had authority to command the four angels to keep in check the four winds until this work was performed, and until he should give the summons to let them loose….This sealing of the servants of God is the same that was shown to Ezekiel in vision.” — “Testimonies to Ministers,” pp. 444, 445.( 2 SC, no. 5-6, p.10)

Strangely however, some Davidians, particularly those who have been taught from the historical line of DSDA teachers coming from bro. Don Adair, say there will be a separation of time! I know, unbelieveable. Yet they think this mostly because of the new codes and their fallacy teaching of Jacob’s time of trouble coming before Ezekiel 9, Assyrian confederacy and so forth.

The last several days we have engaged in a study of a well known (and fairly popular) present truth teacher who has tried to tell us that the 144,000 will experience JTT before Ezekiel 9, be called before the courts to answer for our faith, etc. we have tried many angles to show him this cannot be sustained by the published writings of VTH (not Florence Houteff).

Let us just explain a few points we have tried to get across to these misguided brethren. First as the JTT, we know that in 1 TG, no.47 it says —

“That which happened to Jacob is sure to happen to us, and how comforting to know all this ahead of time. Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that where there is no type, there is no Truth.” (page 15)

Their postition is that, for example, we here in the USA are already journeying on the way home to the kingdom while still in our adopted land. What?? Does that fit type brethren? Did Jacob experience JTT whil in his adopted land, Labans? Of course not. He was well on his travel homeward, in fact almost 90% there. Stike one.

Next , as the anti-type Jacob is shown to be the 144,000 from the message, how is it that they even exist and are disclosed to view before that number is sealed? Remember we are told the sealing of the 144,000 is the same as Ezekiel 9. Further we have solid confirmation that the Rod gives a directive — we are NOT to do something in understanding this sealing process. Let us read–

“And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt Thou destroy all the residue of Israel in Thy pouring out of Thy fury upon Jerusalem?  Then said He unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great,…and as for Me also, Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity.” Ezek. 9:8-10.

   After the sighing and crying ones were marked (which is not to be understood as being consummated in its entirety worldwide before the slaying follows anywhere), the slaughter completed, and the matter reported, the Lord “spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city.” Ezek. 10:2.” (Tract 1, p.38-39)

Wow, clearly we are told we are not to understand that the sealing is consummated before Ezekiel 9! Yet many are telling us to understand it opposite of Inspiration. You see brethren our adversary is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). Strike two.

Our foundational beliefs, which is our fundamental beliefs state a clear sequence of events , let us read —


“4. That the destruction of the tares from among the first fruits of the living (Matt. 13:30, 48, 49; Ezek. 9:6, 7) results in the purification of the church.

   5. That immediately thereafter, the angels let loose the four winds (Rev. 7:1-3), whereupon ensues the time of trouble and Michael’s standing up to deliver from it, all whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life (Dan. 12:1).

   6. That the angels’ letting loose the four winds to blow over the four corners of the earth (Rev. 7:1), does not anticipate a World war but rather a world wide decree enforced throughout Babylon by the image-beast, and that then no one may buy or sell save he who worships “the image.” Rev. 13:15-17.

   7. That subsequently, the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7) for the 144,000, the sons of Jacob, logically develops on their way home (Gen. 32:1, 24) to the land of their fathers (Ezek. 36:28; 37:21, 25).” (FB Tract, p.12-13)

JTT is subsequent to what? Ezekiel 9! Even an outsider of our faith would read this and understand this sequence. Too plain and too clear, yet the enemy of souls has his teachers try to blind us of God’s message. Strike three.

They have struck out and stand without a firm foundation. But those who trust in the Lord sending His Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) shall clearly see and know what God’s message of Elijah says. Stand firm brethren as our enemy has his teachers and God has his. Study and do not fail to “rightly divide the word of truth.”(2 Tim. 2:15)

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

As the picture shows, according to the Rod message, God’s people will flee quickly as if fleeing an earthquake at the arrival of a prophetic event. A close and dear sister reached out to us recently via Facebook and enquired the following “Is Jacob’s time of trouble going to be the Sunday law, for the 144,000?”

A great and timely question! But in order to answer that we find it helpful to discuss what the message says about what happens right after Ezekiel 9. What do those who “escape” the judgment in the house of God do?

The following is a verbatim response we gave her and it sets a firm foundation as to her question. Be Blessed.

To start with, we find the study of the 4 Carpenters and the 144,000 gives us a good foundational basis
to see how the 144,000 cannot possibly go through the SL unless we want to discard harmonization. Both
the Rod and SOP tell us we must do. Note the following — 


“Let us remember always to observe the inviolable rule that an interpretation of one inspired statement must harmonize with all other related statements. ( 3 Ans, p.41)

“Those who are willing to risk all on the ground of one inspired statement and disregard another in order to carry out certain cherished ideas of their own… We would never try to establish an idea on the basis of agreeing with one passage of Scripture while disagreeing with another, for such a conclusion is as sure to be erroneous as if one should conclude that when the sun sets in the evening, it will never arise in the morning. The student of truth should harmonize”(2 SC, no. 1, p.5)

“Those who entertain the idea that there is only one sifting, and only first fruits, will never be able to harmonize every statement of the Bible and of the Spirit of Prophecy, for while their idea may perfectly harmonize in one instance, it will not in another. But the position of those who know the truth, and who all speak the same thing, will be in harmony with every inspired statement on the subject.” (2 SC, no. 12, p.7)

“No candid Bible student would build a theory upon an interpretation that would lead him to set aside all other scriptures on the subject. He will seek to make his final analysis in such a way as to be in perfect harmony with all of them, or else confess that he does not have the light on the subject.” (3 Ans, p.53)

“Though there is but one right interpretation of each Bible doctrine, yet a multitude of conflicting interpretation are in the Christian world today, with the result that it is split into many sects and schisms (heads), woth no two believing alike.” (Tract 12, p.24)



So let’s ask this important question — How soon do the 144,000 leave for the kingdom after Ezek. 9?


There are the following Rod quotes that brings light to this question —

Zech. 14:5 — “And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

   Having thus opened the way for the re-establishment of the house of Judah, His people, who beforehand have been informed of it through present Truth, will flee to the valley, to where the Lord’s feet stand, as quickly as if they were fleeing from an earthquake; and all the saints thereafter follow after them. ( 1 TG, no. 19, p.4-5)

Note it is talking of when the Lord’s feet stand on Mt. Olives in the time of the Zech. 14 war. And what do the 144,000 do? Stand around and wait? Stay in their own country for a while? No, not according to this reference. They “flee” quickly to the Holy land at that time, which also is at the conclusion of Ezek.9 (see Tract 14, p.22 where it says the while the great war is on, Ezek. 9 comes).

“Just before the kingdom of Judah is established in Jerusalem, the city shall be besieged, the houses shall be rifled and women ravished.  Not all, though, shall go into captivity.  The residue are not cut off from the city, they obviously become a part of the house of Judah.  At that time, when Jerusalem has fallen and the Lord has removed all obstacles and hindrances for the gathering of His people, then it is that the house of Judah is re-established.  God’s people shall flee to the “valley” as quickly as though they were fleeing from an earthquake.  The Lord smites the armies of the nations, while at the same time He protects and exalts His own people.” (1 TG, no. 19, p.8)

Again the point is repeated. They flee quickly to the Holy land once war happens and sometime during it Ezek. 9 does as well. Remember, once Ezekiel 9 happens the 144,000 saints will have no doubt that they have a job to do from the message and that is to get back to the land to set up the kingdom for the great multitude to come into.

Zech 14:4, 5 — “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

   “In that day.”  In what day? — In the day all nations gather against Jerusalem that now is, and bring its fall from Gentile rule.  In that day the Lord’s feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives.  The Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, there shall be a very great valley; “and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.” Zech. 14:4.  The Lord’s post-millennial coming, too, shall be similar to this.  See Early Writings, pp. 51, 52.

   The servants of God shall then flee to the valley of the mountains, where the Lord’s feet shall stand, and all the saints with them; that is, the Lord’s “feet” will open the way for the restoration of the Kingdom, and for the gathering of the people into it.” ( 2 TG, no. 31, p.6-7)

For the third time it is repeated again! This shows the Lord does not want us to miss this point.

We must keep in mind that the rapid travel to the Kingdom results on the 144,000 meeting up with the “Four Carpenters” who job it is , is to work for the Lord and 144,000 to prepare the Kingdom to received the Great Multitude who come from the preaching of the 144,000 around the world.

Now, we are told to go by “weight of evidence” as shown in the following statements —

“Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives candid evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence.”(Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p.675)

“The weight of evidence” is the only fair and final criterion worthy of a Christian who must ever make an investigation for himself concerning purported truth.” ( 1 Ans, p.77) 

“In considering the several scriptures bearing on this point and on the kindred points in question, we must base our conclusions solely on the weight of evidence, so that we may not only know all the truth, but also teach nothing but the truth” (Tract 9, p.6)

“Some who are anxious to risk Present Truth on the weight of what one inspired statement seems to say or imply, are thereby presumptuously or very ignorantly overlooking the “weight of evidence.” Others are doing this through shortsightedness, while still others are doing it to prop up certain cherished ideas of their own.” (3 Ans, p. 41-42)

Says the Spirit of Prophecy, “Close reasoners and logical thinkers are few. ” “How many men in this age of the world fail to go deep enough. They only skim the surface. They will not think closely enough to see difficulties and grapple with them, and will not examine every important subject which comes before them with thoughtful, prayerful study, and with sufficient caution and interest to see the real point at issue. They talk of matters which they have not fully and carefully weighed. ”—“Fundamentals of Christian Education,” p. 27; “Testimonies for the Church,” Vol. 4, p. 361. (3 SC, no.5-6, p.7)


So can we find any other statements that show a different time when they leave for the kingdom? No we do not. 

There is one possible statement, that some use to interpret as to say the saints stay in their homeland after Ezek. 9. It is based on the following —  The Rod comments on this statement —

“Thus says the LORD: “The people who survived the sword Found grace in the wilderness— Israel, when I went to give him rest.” (Jer. 31:2)

The Rod comments on this statement ––“Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.”

The people who survive their captivity, are to find grace in the lands of the Gentiles — in “the wilderness,” away from the vineyard. (Since the Promised Land is the vineyard — Isaiah 5 — then what would the wilderness be but the lands of the Gentiles?) God’s people will find this grace at the time the Lord causes them to rest from their “sojourning” — after the “Judgment in the house of God” (1 Pet. 4:17) takes place.” (1 TG, no.48, p.20)

We are told that rest will be found after Ezek. 9. Thus, we only look at the type Jacob as to where and when he found that grace and rest. He found it not in his adopted homeland, where he lived while in exile, but
while he was on his journey homeward. So yes, they saints will find grace and rest after Ezek. 9, but not as the stay in their adopted homeland but on their travel to the kingdom. And we have learned that journey start quickly after Ezek. 9


Now, once we see this clearly, we get the solid facts —

1) Because the saints flee quickly to the Holy land after Ezek. 9, they then will experience grace and rest sometime during their travel to the Kingdom.

2) As this happens quickly after Ezek. 9, they cannot logically go through the Sunday law on their way home unless we want to say the SL is set up PRIOR or DURING the war (and Ezek.9) which would be preposterous and 
illogical

3) As not only the saints find grace and rest,  they experience Jacob’s time of trouble on their way home (confirmed by our Fundamental Beliefs). They then meet up with the Four Carpenters (as spoken of in Zech. 1:19-21)

4) So logically the JTT must be something else they experience apart from the SL.

Take a look at our Harvest Chart —

Notice what happens after Ezek. 9. We see the church federation. Then AFTER , not before, is the arrival of the false prophet and the establishment of the SL in the two -horned  beast domain (USA)

So to conclude when we add it all up and weighing the evidence the SL cannot be JTT, nor can it be established right away after  the Zech. 14 war and Ezek. 9

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

As we see the subject of Matt:20 parable being discussed among present truth believers, the Lord in His wonderful way “supped” (Rev. 3:20) once more with us. Things were made much more clearer as to whether we are in the 11th hour or whether we are pre-11th hour.

As we have mentioned many times before in our correspondance with brethren on this subject, this is one of those subjects we must “go deep” and weigh it, as there are conflicting statements. This is similar to the “Those with” subject. You will find several references that seem to say one view and others saying another view, seemingly contradictory.

If the Lord said through SOP and the Rod the following counsels, then it must be  we CAN find the weight of the subject. This is important, as some are propping up their ideas without explaining the opposite  view and harmonizing it. We found that continually in our correspondance with brethren on the “Those with” subject in the past.

“Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives candid evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence.”(Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p.675)

“The weight of evidence” is the only fair and final criterion worthy of a Christian who must ever make an investigation for himself concerning purported truth.” ( 1 Ans, p.77) 

“In considering the several scriptures bearing on this point and on the kindred points in question, we must base our conclusions solely on the weight of evidence, so that we may not only know all the truth, but also teach nothing but the truth” (Tract 9, p.6)

“Some who are anxious to risk Present Truth on the weight of what one inspired statement seems to say or imply, are thereby presumptuously or very ignorantly overlooking the “weight of evidence.” Others are doing this through shortsightedness, while still others are doing it to prop up certain cherished ideas of their own.” (3 Ans, p. 41-42)

Now let us begin by addressing an issue that has come up in the discussion. That is, this subject is a “salvational” issue. Meaning we had better be on the correct side of the question of whether we are in the 11th hour or not. This issue we feel is a “How readest thou?” (Luke 10:26) meaning that due to the confusing and conflicting statements we cannot believe the Lord would hold those accountable for siding with one view (although incorrect) because of the many statements that seem to back up that view. The lesson on Tract 10 “Sign of Jonah” guides us and explains —

"Suffice it to say that our experience in gospel publishing work teaches us that many who have spent almost  countless hours of precious time in confusing the subject of the sign of Jonah, have spent but very little time in studying more essential subjects such as the prohibition against private interpretations of the Scriptures (2 Pet. 1:19, 20); the Spirit of Prophecy (Rev. 19:10); the Sabbath (Ex. 20:8-11); baptism (Matt. 3:15; Acts 2:38); the Kingdom (Isa. 2:2), the slaughter of Ezekiel 9, tithe paying (Mal. 3:10); although these vital subjects call for performance, -- a duty to practice the truths which they teach, -- whereas the sign of Jonah demands nothing." (Tract 10, p.20)

What does saying we are in or pre- 11th hour gain us? What does that change our message now to the church? Nothing. God’s workers in the church vineyard now are still to proclaim the message of the “judgment for the living” for the SDA church is soon to begin (1 Peter 4:17) along with reformation and the understanding of the 144,000 (SR, vol.1, introduction).

Now contrast that to the subject of the 144,000 sealing in the SDA church. The Rod clearly points the understanding of this subject as salvational. 

“If we do not understand the subject of the 144,000, we may not be sealed, for it would be worthless to understand it after the sealing, just as it would be of no value to understand the beast and his image after his work on earth is finished.” (SRod,  Vol. 1 p.14)

“Some day this subject must be understood, for Inspiration makes no useless statements, and it cannot be in the Bible for a trinket.  It must be understood before the number (144,000) is made or it would be of no value.  When understood, it will guide the feet of the 144,000 in the straight path just as the first, second, and third angel’s messages have led thousands of souls to Christ.”(SRod, vol. 1, p.14)

“The primary purpose of The Shepherd’s Rod is to unlock the long-concealed mystery concerning the ever-challenging and much discussed subject of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1), with the central object in view of bringing about among God’s people that “thorough reformation” foretold by the Spirit of Prophecy (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 251)….

 …Its dominant doctrinal concern being the truth of the 144,000, and a correct understanding of it being a life-and-death matter to all, the Rod unfolds it from several different angles, each urging the Denomination to prepare for the glorious deliverance of the saints and against the inglorious destruction of the sinners as foretokened by the marking and slaying recorded in Ezekiel 9.” (SRod Tract, p.5-6)

There are quite a few brethren , we find, who error in the 144,000  subject, particularily on the total  amount of those sealed in Ezek.9 from the church. In other words the amount said to be sealed from “all the tribes of children of Israel”(Rev. 7:4)  is incorrect in their view. Serious indeed!

But after a deep study of this Matt.20 lesson, as to what hour we are in, this can be subjective and our brothers who mount the judgment seat and say “You must get this right or you will be lost” we caution this proclamation. Nevertheless, as we study this issue, we feel it has one view as being correct.

In our next report , part 2, we’ll begin our detailed study of Matt.20, as the Rod has told us —

“(If you wish to study the parable in all its details, you may do so by reading The Shepherd’s Rod, Vol. 2, pp. 222-239.)” (2 TG, no.43,p.11  – published in 1949 and reprinted in 1953)

In that section, we discover strong evidence of how we can determine whether we are now in the 11th hour, or whether we are pre-11th hour. By God’s grace, we will see that the weight of the correct postition can be found.

To conclude, it is very unfortunate some have discussed this issue as a way of degrading our Pre-11th Hour Ministry work, but the Lord is good and those willing and able to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15) will not be shaken by such short-sightedness.

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

Well some of our brethren may be asking “What happened now with Pre-11th hour Ministry and UPA7?” That’s a great question brethren. For those who have followed both our groups, you’re aware that over the last few months UPA7 and us have made joint YouTube presentations, collaborating together for the message of the hour.

However things have taken a strange turn the last couple weeks, so what happened? In this report we’ll break down what has transpired. 

We have to go back to September of 2024, yours truly received a FB chat message from our brother Edstrom. As many know, over the years we have had quite a public back and forth on many subjects. Some of it  was quite critical towards each other. The subjects of the Kingdom travel, God’s  organization structure today, who  is entitled to collects tithes, and so forth were our topics.

So in the message we received, Edstrom said he wanted to make a “peace treaty”. This we viewed, was a good first start to having honest discussions and possibly reconciling our differences, at least study them out together. After all there is only one Truth on prophecies and Bible subjects.

So we accepted his offer and we talked a few days later. A Long conversation as one would expect, as we had to catch up and express his peace treaty. We always should remember what the Word says —

“If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” (Romans 12:18)

So very soon after this, our communication became more frequent. Phone calls and FB chat messages mostly. Soon plans were made to do a joint Bible study on the Fundamental Beliefs. Pre-11th hour had already begun to put the word out that probably the best starting point in unifying Davidia, was to have meetings with other DSDA groups, with the goal of understanding and agreeing to our FB’s. Surprisingly, many DSDA “say” they believe in them yet teach otherwise. For example, JTT comes before Ezekiel 9. The FB’s show otherwise.

We did our presentation of the FB’s with UPA7 this  Sept. The meeting was a success and the synergy was excellent. One of the points highlighted is that in order to believe the FB’s, one must throw out the idea of a Flying Chariot picking up the saints and zooming them over to the kingdom. This idea and FB no.7 “..the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7) for the 144,000, the sons of Jacob, logically develops on their way home (Gen. 32:1, 24)”  cannot be harmonized. This was one of the subjects Edstrom and myself discussed in our prior YouTube presentations. He supported the Chariot travel idea, we did not. 

Then after this we decided to do a part 2, but this time focusing on Florence Houteff and the new code debacle over our history. This as well was rewarding and many were blessed and enlightened.

In the last presentation we did together , one of the UPA7 brethren brought up the question about our name “Pre-11th Hour  Ministry” and implied we should reconsider it. We mentioned we’d be happy to discuss this topic at a later date. Later brother Edstrom reached out to us indicating he had something to show us. It was the decades old (I mean back in the 90’s) Nosworthy situation, whereby he sent off warning letters to the government bascially starting the whole Waco fiasco  with Koresh and his cult.

But his main point was to have us reconsider our name and how it was not good for spreading the message of the hour as a group name. We kindly responded that we were not concerned, as Nosworthy’s name was “Pre-11th hour Bible study” and though similar in name ,God would protect His work and that Nosworthy’s work was not God’s work at all. 

The same logic can be applied to our name Davidian Seventh-day Adventists. Just because Koresh tainted the word “Davidian”, do we now change it? Let’s be firm , God is able to protect His work no matter how the enemy tries to tear it down. We do not capitulate.

Our main goal is to reach Mother (SDA church) and 99.9% of Adventists have no clue concerning this issue. It’s a non-issue, and why bring this controversy up as the relevance is not there. Brother Edstrom was stirring up a hornet’s nest when it did not need to be stirred up. He soon made a video bringing it up in the public forum. And most unsettling is his portrayal as our Ministry being spiritually tainted both by the name and the idea we are not in the 11th hour yet.

So now we are where we are.  We ofcourse, on our end, wish only the best for our brother, but we won’t stand down from proclaiming the truth.

There are serious doctrinal issues  that exisit between our groups, with the main one being how God is organizing His work today. Our groups had talked on possibly setting up private studies on this issue, we will have to wait and see if that can still be accomplished.

But we are clear, we cannot support UPA7’s ideas that we are in the scattering period and that each must fend for himself. That small groups of brethren, even individuals, who produce the original Rod message can be entitled to collect tithes. This is ignorance and disobedience of the Lord’s Rod counsel —

CANNOT MY HOME BE HIS “STOREHOUSE”?

Question No. 97:

Is it Scriptural for one to retain and personally use his tithe and offerings in order to carry on the gospel work in his own community, according to his own plans? { ABN4: 44.3 }

Answer:

Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find permission to use the Lord’s money at our own discretion. The only justification for so doing would be sheer inability, for some reason to send it to the Lord’s “storehouse.” Should one voluntarily, though, engage in such a practice then he would set the wrong example before others. And if following in his lead, others assume the same right, their course must inevitably result in seriously handicapping the Lord’s work, bleeding and subverting His treasury, and thus disorganizing His work and reducing the church to a mere shell, while her members are hiring themselves as laborers in the Lord’s vineyard, helping themselves to the Lord’s money, and running without having been sent! What a Babylon that would be! { ABN4: 44.4 }

Though the Lord commands, “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse” (Mal. 3: 10), He does not say to bring all the offerings. Thus, He shows that if we would engage in some personal charity or missionary activity, we should sustain it from offerings, not from the tithe. { ABN4: 45.1 }

“Angels keep a faithful record of every man’s work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter….And the crowns they might have worn, had they been faithful, are put upon the heads of those saved by the faithful servants….”Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 198. { ABN4: 45.2 }

In closing, we’ll be publishing an indepth report on the 11th hour question. As stated, brother Edstrom has brought this out for discussion and we must dig deep upon the many references, charts and symbols to weigh  this matter  out.

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus

As many are aware our Minstry (Pre-11th Hour) and UPA7 have presented two recent studies. We discussed our Fundamental Beliefs in part 1 and Florence Houteff’s role in disrupting the message in part 2. The links will be provided below.

We have heard from some of the brethren of late, and they inquire whether there is a uniting of the two organizations in the near future. The simple answer is nothing is planned as of now.

The Chinese have an old true saying ” A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.” Yours truly and brother Edstrom have experienced a difficult history, much of it public via YouTube and Blogs. However a fateful call came from our brother back in 2024 which, praise the Lord, changed our course.  Instead of finding ways to go against each other, we now look at ways of working together. The Word says —

“If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” (Romans 12:18)

This being said, we still have work to do. There is the main issue of — how is God leading His work today? Specifically, has God generally abandoned central organized leadership and preferred scattering brethren all over the world to carry on His work without any one centralized leadership structure?

UPA7 and Pre-11th hour have differing beliefs on this issue. Again the Word of God helps us —

“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”(1 Cor. 14:33)

There is a clear path forward on this issue and Lord willing we’ll be able to study it out and discern God’s Word and just as importantly –His history in leading His people.

“In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of our advance to our present standing, I can say Praise God! As I can see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with Christ as our leader. We have nothing to fear for the future except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us.” (TM, p.31)

When we step back and see His leading, specifically after the Knock-out blow, we can gather great insight as to how He is leading us since then. Do not for once think God was not leading each specific move since the passing of the prophet. Those who do, have much to fear as Inspiration tells us, and thus be in the dark on this issue.

Once we see His historical course, we know how He is leading us right now –today. Is it one centralized leadership organizational structure or a scattering of brethren without no such structure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAUdHourn4Y&t=3445s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pZHwljFn0

Tags: bible, christianity, faith, god, jesus